Does the church still have the Urim and Thummim?

The authentic Urim and Thummim were sacred instruments used by the High Priest of Israel for divine guidance, ceasing their function with the destruction of the First Temple. Claims of their modern existence or use by any 'church' depart from biblical and historical truth.

Quick Answer

Does the church still have the Urim and Thummim? Quick Answer Quick Answer: No, the church does not still have the Urim and Thummim. The authentic Urim and Thummim, integral to the High Priesthood of Israel, ceased functioning with the destruction of the First Temple and the cessation of the prophetic office, being superseded by…

Does the church still have the Urim and Thummim?

Quick Answer

Quick Answer: No, the church does not still have the Urim and Thummim. The authentic Urim and Thummim, integral to the High Priesthood of Israel, ceased functioning with the destruction of the First Temple and the cessation of the prophetic office, being superseded by the perfect High Priesthood of Yeshua HaMashiach.

The Scholarly Case

The Urim and Thummim were sacred instruments entrusted exclusively to the High Priest of Israel, placed within the breastpiece of judgment (Exodus 28:30). Their purpose was to discern the divine will of YHWH for the nation of Israel, particularly for its leaders, as seen when Joshua sought counsel through Eleazar the priest "by the judgment of the Urim" (Numbers 27:21). These were not mere stones for personal divination, but part of a highly structured, divinely ordained system of communication unique to the Levitical priesthood. The Tanakh describes the precise construction and placement of these items. Exodus 28:30 states, "And place the Urim and Thummim in the breastpiece of judgment, so that they will also be over Aaron’s heart whenever he comes before the LORD. Aaron will continually carry the judgment of the sons of Israel over his heart before the LORD." This passage, along with Leviticus 8:8, which records Moses placing them in Aaron's breastpiece, underscores their integral connection to the High Priestly office and its garments (Exodus 28:1-43). The Urim and Thummim were not separate, loose objects to be held or peered into, but were securely housed within the "breastpiece of judgment" (Exodus 28:30). Historically, the function of the Urim and Thummim ceased with the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE and the subsequent Babylonian exile. This is a well-documented position within ancient Jewish tradition. The Mishnah, in Tractate Sotah 9:12, explicitly states that with the death of the former prophets, the Urim and Thummim ceased. Similarly, the Talmud in Yoma 21b discusses five things that were lost with the destruction of the First Temple, including the Urim and Thummim. The expectation of their return was tied to the Messianic era, as evidenced by Ezra 2:63 and Nehemiah 7:65, which mention that certain priests could not partake of holy things "until a priest stood up with Urim and with Thummim." This indicates their absence during the Second Temple period. The cessation of the Urim and Thummim is not a theological oversight but a profound shift in YHWH's redemptive plan. The prophetic office, which provided direct divine guidance, diminished after Malachi (circa 430 BCE), the last prophet of the Tanakh. This period of prophetic silence set the stage for the coming of Yeshua HaMashiach. With Yeshua, the need for intermediary instruments like the Urim and Thummim was superseded. He is the ultimate High Priest, "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek" (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6). Unlike the Levitical priests, whose service was temporary and whose lives were cut short by death, Yeshua "lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood" (Hebrews 7:23-28). His single, perfect sacrifice "has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:10-14), rendering the old covenant's ritualistic elements, including the Urim and Thummim, obsolete. Furthermore, the Torah strictly forbids practices akin to divination or sorcery (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The Urim and Thummim were a unique, divinely sanctioned means of communication, distinct from pagan or occultic practices. Any attempt to replicate or claim possession of such instruments outside the specific parameters of the Mosaic covenant and the High Priesthood, especially after Yeshua's advent, would be a deviation from biblical truth and potentially fall into forbidden categories of seeking knowledge. The authentic Urim and Thummim were not "seer stones" to be placed in a hat; they were part of the High Priest's sacred attire, worn over the heart, symbolizing the carrying of Israel's judgment before YHWH (Exodus 28:30). Therefore, from a Hebraic-Messianic perspective, the Urim and Thummim ceased their function with the end of the First Temple era and were ultimately superseded by Yeshua's perfect and eternal priesthood. Any modern claims to their possession or use by any "church" are historically and theologically untenable.

Adversary Teardown: lds.org

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) makes claims regarding the continued existence and use of the Urim and Thummim, which directly contradict biblical and historical accounts. Joseph Smith Jr., the founder of Mormonism, introduced the concept of his own "Urim and Thummim" for translating the Book of Mormon. This narrative is promoted on lds.org and in various LDS publications, often presenting a simplified version of Smith's translation process. However, historical accounts, including those from early LDS figures, reveal a divergence from the biblical description of the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Knight, an early associate of Smith, described Smith's translation method: "now the way he translated was he put the urum and thum into his hat and darkened his eyes" (Joseph Knight, *Reminiscences*). This description, which places the "urum and thum" (or seer stones) in a hat to "darken his eyes," bears no resemblance to the biblical Urim and Thummim, which were placed in the High Priest's breastpiece (Exodus 28:30). The biblical Urim and Thummim functioned within a sacred, priestly context, not as instruments for peering into a hat. This discrepancy highlights a fundamental fault line. The LDS narrative often conflates Smith's "seer stones" with the biblical Urim and Thummim, despite clear differences in function, placement, and context. The Book of Mormon's authenticity is often defended by arguing that the specific method of translation (whether Urim and Thummim or seer stone) does not impact one's "testimony." However, for those grounded in the Tanakh, the method of receiving revelation is paramount. Joseph Smith's use of a "seer stone in a hat" aligns more closely with folk magic or divination practices, which are explicitly condemned in the Torah (Deuteronomy 18:10-12), rather than the divinely ordained instruments of the Israelite High Priesthood. Furthermore, the LDS claim to a restored priesthood, specifically the Melchizedek Priesthood, through Joseph Smith, is problematic. Internal LDS scripture, Doctrine and Covenants 124:28, states that "the fulness of the priesthood" was "lost unto you, or which he hath taken away." This verse, dated to 1841, implies a loss of priesthood authority prior to Smith's alleged restoration, a loss that LDS church manuals are notably silent on regarding its timing and cause. The authentic Melchizedek Priesthood is held solely by Yeshua HaMashiach (Hebrews 7:23-28), not by any earthly institution or individual claiming a modern restoration based on methods that diverge from biblical precedent. The LDS Church's narrative of a "restored" Urim and Thummim and priesthood represents a significant departure from the established Hebraic understanding of divine revelation and priestly function, creating an anachronistic theological framework that lacks support from primary biblical and historical sources.

Counter-Arguments Anticipated

Objection 1: The Book of Mormon itself mentions Urim and Thummim, thus validating their use by Joseph Smith.

This argument is circular and self-referential. The Book of Mormon, a text produced by Joseph Smith, cannot serve as an independent validation for Smith's claims regarding the Urim and Thummim. The Hebraic-Messianic position relies on the Tanakh and historical Jewish tradition, which clearly define the Urim and Thummim's function, placement, and cessation. The Book of Mormon's description or use of the term does not align with the biblical context of the breastpiece of judgment (Exodus 28:30) and the High Priestly office, but rather with Smith's own "seer stones" used in a hat, a practice more akin to divination forbidden by YHWH (Deuteronomy 18:10-12).

Objection 2: Joseph Smith's use of "seer stones" was simply a different form of the Urim and Thummim, adapted for his time.

This objection attempts to normalize a practice that fundamentally differs from the biblical Urim and Thummim. The Torah is explicit about the design and placement of the Urim and Thummim within the High Priest's breastpiece (Exodus 28:30). It does not describe them as loose stones to be used in a hat. Furthermore, the Tanakh forbids various forms of divination and sorcery (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). To claim that "seer stones" are merely an updated version of the Urim and Thummim is to ignore the specific, divinely mandated context of the biblical instruments and to potentially legitimize practices that YHWH condemns. The Priesthood of Yeshua, foreshadowed in Psalm 110:4 and elaborated in Hebrews 7:23-28, is the ultimate and final form of divine mediation, rendering prior instruments obsolete.

Objection 3: The Urim and Thummim could have been lost and then restored, as part of a general restoration of all things.

While the concept of restoration is central to Messianic faith (e.g., the restoration of Israel), it must align with biblical prophecy and Yeshua's work. The Urim and Thummim were tied to the Levitical High Priesthood, which was a shadow of the perfect, eternal High Priesthood of Yeshua HaMashiach (Hebrews 7:23-28). With Yeshua's advent, the need for such instruments ceased, as direct access to Elohim is now available through Him. Furthermore, the claim of a restoration of the Urim and Thummim by Joseph Smith is viewed by some as undermined by the historical evidence of his use of "seer stones" and the anachronisms found within the Book of Mormon, such as pre-Columbian horses and steel, which lack archaeological support (Michael Coe, "Mormons & Archaeology: An Outside View"). DNA evidence reportedly refutes the Book of Mormon's claim of a Hebrew lineage for Native Americans, pointing instead to Asian origins (Simon Southerton, *Losing a Lost Tribe*), which some see as further discrediting the notion of a biblical restoration through Smith.

Position Lock

Position Lock: The authentic Urim and Thummim, as described in the Tanakh, ceased to function with the destruction of the First Temple and were ultimately superseded by the eternal High Priesthood of Yeshua HaMashiach; any modern claim to their possession or use by any "church" is considered a tradition that deviates from some understandings of biblical truth and historical accounts.